(Background noise and inaudible conversation between unknown parties prior to the conversation between Chief Deputy Tanner and Deputy Hajash.)

BY CHIEF DEPUTY TANNER:

Q: I’ve got a couple things in here, and I’m just to make sure that things are where they need to be. What is happening with you? I’ve got two different letters of – I’ve had it here on my desk somewhere. I’m not losing my mind. I’ve got two different – one from Yee for a sick slip and one from Appalacian Psychiatric for sick slip. What’s going on?
A: Dr. Yee, I had him do all the tests, the medical tests.

Q: What medical tests?
A: He did two stress tests, an echocardiogram, blood work. In the hospital, the night I went up there to the emergency room, that was the last night I worked, they did blood work and they gave me an echocardiogram, another one, I hink, they did that. I didn’t tell Dr. Yee what my problems were. I thought maybe I was having heart trouble, because the hospital said fluid around my heart. I never told him about the shooting, my dreams and stuff like that that’s bothering me.

Q: Uh-huh.
come back to normal..

Q: Uh-huh.
A: And that’s when I told him about that, and he said, “well, that’s a psychological thing, You need to go see a psychiatrist.”

Q: Okay.
A: And Michael Johnson or – that’s his name, Mike Johnson?

Q: Mike Johnson
A: He hasn’t returned my calls in a month.

Q: Okay. So I have one doctor saying you’re unfit for duty, psychologically, which is not true at all, that absolutely will destroy your career, the very thing we’re avoiding. I’ve got another doctor saying you’re indefinitely to have time off for chest pain, and that’s not true.

A: Well, he said he was going to take me off until he seen what they can do further with me.

Q: Do you have chest problems?
A: It hurts. I mean, I don’t have a heart condition, but –

Q: You don’t have fluid on the heart?
A: It hurts. I mean, I don’t have a heart condition, but –

Q: You don’t have fluid on the heart?
A: No, they couldn’t find nothing.

Q: You didn’t have a massive coronary?
A: No.

Q: Okay. That’s the first rumors, that you’ve had a coronary, which isn’t true; and that you have fluid on your heart, which isn't true. Dr. Yee cannot give you an indefinite sick slip. There's no such thing, unless there's a diagnosis of a problem. You can't just say you're not going to come to work. So Dr. Yee's out of line, and that is not valid. The next thing is: You applied for Worker's Comp. I would have appreciated it, if you'd checked in and let me know what you're doing. I thought everything's fine. Then I get two doctor's slips, find out that you have a heart condition, that you're not fit for duty psychologically, and that you've applied for Worker's Comp. None of that qualifies for Worker's Comp. Your claim was denied. Do you know what that does to you?
A. Huh-uh.

Q. It eats all your vacation and sick time up, and right now, it's not sick time, it's vacation. Do you know you just lost a month of vacation time?
A. No.

Q. Yeah. It sucks, which is not fair to you; it's not right, and I'm not going to let that happen. Okay? So that's not happening to you, but that is what the law requires, because you're not checking in with anybody. You're calling your own shots and screwing your department, and that was never anyone's intent here. Who are you seeing, in a way of a psychiatrist, since we've been paying that charge for you?
A. Dr. Syed. That doctor seen me the first day Yee sent me out there.

Q. Okay.
A. And the next day, I told him about my chest hurting, and he only seen me for about five minutes, and he said to come back later on or to call him when I started like that.

Q. Well, it's extremely common to have stress-induced chest problems; that's like extremely common. Even I know that, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express, That's a joke and you can laugh. Now, my problem is, you are gone until further notice, you're growing a beard, you're out cutting grass and running around. Meanwhile, you don't have an explanation for being gone, John. I know that you're acting in good faith, and I know that you don't have a devious bone in your body; I know that. I know you're not trying to get away with anything, and I know that; I honestly do. But Dr. Yee can't give you unlimited time off simply because you want it. If he did, how many people would be working here?
A. None.

Q. Exactly. You think I don't have chest pains every day I come to work? And boy, if I don't have them, when I get here I do. I mean, that's just life. If there's an organic problem, a physical problem, you have every right to have sick time and time off until you heal up. Now, if it's not an organic physical problem, you don't have fluid on your lungs or your heart, or whatever, then a medical doctor cannot give you an indefinite time off. There's no such thing. So a doctor can't just give you a free pass to never have to work until you want to. That's not what sick time is. And a doctor's excuse doesn't cover everything. If you have a legitimate condition, it does.

Q. He's not giving you a legitimate condition. Your chest has pressure on it. Okay, well, don't go back to work. Okay, that doesn't work. They tested you and you're normal.
A. Well, his thing is, he was taking time off, until the psychiatrist seen me and see what he said.

Q.It's the psychiatrist's place to do that, not Dr. Yee's place to do that. Dr. Yee can't take you off work for a mental condition, because he's a medical doctor. Do you understand the problems that I'm running into?
A. Uh-huh.

Q. Dr. Yee has no authority --
A. Because he don't practice in that field?

Q -- to take you off work, because you have a mental problem and he's not helping you with it. So what authority, if he's not helping you with it, does he have to take you off work.
A. He don't.

Q. He doesn't, so that one's out. Su the next one is this Dr. Syed work excuse: "John Hajash is under treatment and may be, "I'm assuming that's an attempt to spell, ""excused' from work indefinitely until stable."
A. He said he wasn't going to write three, six months, he said, but he needs to see how counseling moves.

Q. Okay. That is a real problem. Three to six months off work for what? Don't you think you have a right to know?
A. He said he wants me to see somebody else, because he talked to me for probably an hour, I'd say.

Q. Okay.
A. And he said that he wants me to come back and see a counselor and, they'll, I think, do tests, whatever kind of tests they do. I don't know. He said the multiple choice test, I guess, to see how I'm thinking and something.

Q. You've been off work for a month. Our agreement, that you and I had, was that you were going to go see Mike Johnson and talk to him; that you were going to do that on duty, if you needed to, it just depends on when they set the appointment and that we were going to cover. We would let you -- if I recall, I told you, you could wear blue jeans and drive the cruiser and park away from the place and walk over, or you could take your truck and then do it and drive home, and we would cover the time, and, if you were gone an hour, two hours, it didn't matter; we were going to take care of it. All that meant you weren't off work, that we were giving you an opportunity to talk and work this out, and get some tools in dealing with your stress. Now, somehow it went from that to unlimited time off, and I don't see what the issue is; and then I'm asking you and you can't tell me what the issue is. So I'm really concerned on what Dr. Syed --
A. Syed, right.

Q. All right. Why does Dr. Syed say that you're mentally unstable and not fit for duty?
A. He says PTSD.

Q. PTSD.
A. Post-traumatic stress disorder.

Q. Post -- okay.
A. He said that's what he thinks its stemming from.

Q. When did you go?
A. The night of the 14th. My chest was just hurting real, rally bad.

Q. Now, that's gone. Okay? That's a month ago; right? Since then you're out running around, you're cutting grass, you're doing your chores and activities. How are you doing it?
A. Because when I'm off, my chest ain't hurting so bad.

Q. Don't be deceptive with me, young man, and tell me what's going on
A. What do you mean?

Q. -- and how are you doing. Do you want to come back to work here?
A. I want to.

Q. That's not my question. Are you going to come back to work here?
A. Yes.

Q. Okay. What is your intention?
A. I just want something -- I was wanting help for the chest pains.

Q. Okay.
A. And I think it's just worrying about coming and --

Q. I'm sure it's stress, but you have to deal with that. My problem is, this doesn't seem to have manifested itself until you went to get help. That's kind of like you have an illness and you go to get the medication to make you better, and you turn to crap. That's not how it's supposed to work. It's supposed to make you better, you're supposed to get stronger, you're supposed to have tools to be able to deal with this. Instead, what you're doing is, you're spiraling away. We've lost contact with you. You moved, I don't have a phone number. We don't have any history of what's going on. You drop these off. I haven't even seen you in a month, and now it looks like you're taking the summer off. Why aren't you checking in and telling us what's happening and keep us in the loop?
A. I didn't know until here -- well, when was it, just a couple days ago -- I don't know, I think it was that day, that's when I found out about my test results, because where ARH went on strike, so it's took them forever to get the results back. So I didn't know nothing until then.

Q. That isn't my question at all. My question is: Why aren't you checking in and telling us what's going on.
A. I didn't know until --

Q. Until you know, you could check in, in that month you've been gone and say, "Hey, I don't know, I'm checking my test results; everything seems to be going okay," or you could have told me, "I talked to Mike Johnson once and turned to crap," We've paid him twice now. If you've seen him once --
A. I went twice, and the second time was only just a couple minutes though.

Q. Right. So we paid him twice. You could have come in and told me, "This ain't working out, Chief. I've gone from him to him, and here's how it's progressing and what I see going on." What happened there? What happened to the communication flow, that it just completely, instantly stopped?
A. I don't know.

Q. Sure you do. You're the only who does know, because you're the only one who cut it off. I could have called you, except you changed your address, and you didn't tell anybody?
A. I just changed my cell phone number Saturday.

Q. Maybe, I just know when I finally got this and tried to call you, I don't have any information on you now. You don't even have an updated file. So what's going on?
A. What do you mean?

Q. I mean, what's going on? I don't have an address for you; I don't have a phone number for you; I don't have a contact for you. If there was a major incident, how would I let you know? If I needed you, how would I let you know?
A. I don't know, since I changed my number.

Q. I don't either, and that's what I'm asking you.
A. I don't guess you could.

Q. That's right. How old are you now?
A. Twenty-three.

Q. At 23 years old, I don't call your mom to get hold of you. You're a deputy; you're a man; you're full grown. This is good as life gets, and I still have to call your mommy. John, that's really not good. I expect more from you. (inaudible) You are a number one, good guy. (inaudible) You're going to be a first rate, but this is really -- I don't know if you appreciate how badly you're tearing down everything we're working for, and it's an individual effort on your part. You went from Mike Johnson to this guy and didn't tell me. So when I get billed I'm not having a clue what they're talking about. We went from handling this internally, when you're at work, to you're suddenly off a month and then give me something, until further notice, I ain't working here. You come in with a beard, so you have no intentions of coming back to work immediately.
A. (inaudible) before I come to work.

Q. That's right, brother.
A. I mean, that day, that's what I say?

Q. Yeah. And my point is, your state of mind is, you ain't coming back to work; that's your state of mind. I don't have an address for you; I don't have a phone number for you; I don't have a way to get in contact with you. You ain't telling me what's going on and you're not stopping by the office, I'm sure, except to pick up your paycheck. You filed for Worker's Comp and you didn't tell anybody. How did you file for Worker's Comp?
A. I filled the papers out and sent them in.

Q. Uh-huh. Why didn't you let somebody know what you're doing, or did you feel that was a private thing?
A. No. I was like everybody was going to hate me, if I told them I was going to do this.

Q. Well, if you thought they were going to hate you, why wouldn't you buck up and tell them, rather than let them find out about it when Worker's Comp called and asked me out of the blue, and I don't know what they're talking about. I'm your employer. You have to let us know what's going on. We're the ones who pays for Worker's Comp. That comes out of the budget here. No one's going to hate you, but I could have saved your (inaudible). Your claim was denied, because it's not a physical injury, and that's what Worker's Comp pays. We have other avenues to take care of you, but you've got to let us know what's going on. We're here to support you. What happened to you is not your fault on any level, not on any level. It is a horrible, tragic thing that happened to you. It happened to Kade, as well. And we take care of our own. We're here to support and help you. We're really a family, but you don't get to disown your family and then expect us to (inaudible) everything. It doesn't work like that. It is a family, but you've got to communicate.
A. Yeah.

Q. Now, I'm really concerned with Syed saying you're unfit for duty. Okay? A little extreme. The problem with that is, is that then he has to say, now that you're fit for duty, you can't come back. If you decided I feel fine, the stress is off and I'm dealing with this and I want to move on with life, you don't get to come back. Here's your problem: You have 24 vacation days and 36 sick days. We work a 20-day a month cycle. Since this isn't Worker's Comp. and we subtract your vacation and sick days, guess how many days you have left before you don't get a paycheck here?
A. How many?

Q. At the end of this month, you don't get paid; you're broke. Then what happens to you? He's going to give you six months off, because you weren't fit for duty and you're not going to get paid? What happens to you, John?
A. Lose everything.

Q. You lose everything. So we've got to address that. Now, I'm not going to try to get into your head psychologically, because that's not my place, but it is my place to be concerned about you as the Chief, but more as your friend. You, because of your age and your life experience, you're one of the people who can be easily manipulated, because you just haven't seen enough from all angles. It comes with life; it comes with age. It's not against you, but Syed and you just didn't pick Syed out of the phone book.
A. It's also where Dr. yee sends -- he send people.

Q. So you went from Mike Johnson, under Yee's advice, to Syed.
A. Yeah. Mike Johnson never called me back.

Q. Well, when you went from Dr. Yee to Dr. Syed, how did you cover that with your insurance?
A. What do you mean?

Q. I mean, how did it get paid?
A. I assumed I was going to have to pay it, since I did it.

Q. Okay. Well, we're back to this again, this is what you've done, you've initiated it, and you did this on your own accord. So you tell me what your intentions are?
A. I'm working -- I want the dreams to go away, is what I want.

Q. Okay. That's fine.
A. And Mike Johnson is -- he didn't even talk about then, really.

Q. And you gave him a whole one-hour lesson. He didn't get to it in time.
A. Well, the second time -- he ain't called me though since after the second time.

Q. I know about that. But, if you went from him to another doctor, I don't know that he would have any legal right to call you. If you race cars and Ford is your sponsorship, and you dump your Ford and jump in a Chevy and put a 350 in it, are you going to complain because Ford doesn't call you back? Not if you're in a Chevrolet. If you're supposed to see Mike Johnson, and Mike Johnson is supposed to help you and walk you through this, and we're supposed to foot the bill, and then you go see Yee, and go from Yee to Syed on your own standard, under another banner of psychiatric services, I'm not sure what Mike Johnson's supposed to do. Mike Johnson had dealt with this stuff before, with officer-involved shootings, and has cleared a number of officers who have gone under this particular problem, which is why I like Mike Johnson, he's got experience, and he may not have addressed it in what you consider a timely manner. Now, what I'm stuck with is this: You've gone to a psychiatrist, who is a legitimate MD, who says you are not fir for duty. Now, Mike's not a psychiatrist. Okay?
A. Uh-huh.

Q. So he's not -- this guy outweighs him. Now, he says you're not fit for duty, you're not stable. What is your intention?
A. I hope they can help me out, or whatever, to get rid of the dreams, because when I have dreams, the next day I'm sick, have to go to the bathroom a whole lot and my chest hurts. I just worry a whole lot.

Q. Yeah.
A. But if I don't have dreams, I'm fine.

Q. Okay.
A. I just want somebody to help me get rid of them, however --

Q. That's what you want?
A. That's what I want.

Q. I'm asking you what your intentions are. I want world peace, I want to be rich, I want to sell my other house so I'm not indebted. We have (inaudible), and I know what your long-term goal is to secure. I know what's eating at you. I'm talking about what you've done and what you're going to do. I'm asking you as the co-employer here, your immediate line supervisor and the Chief Deputy, what is your intention? If you're gone three to six months to undergo this, I'm replacing you. I'll hold your position, but I ain't waiting. If this says your unfit for duty. Because you're mentally unstable, which is what this is that you want me to go by, then, yeah, I've got issues. You're screwing yourself to death. What are you going to do?
A. I just want help with the dreams. I don't know what to do.

Q. You don't have a clue what you're doing, do you?
A. That's all I want.

Q. I don't know how to fix it. You kind of passed me over in the chain of things, got into a private sector and got yourself -- you cut your legs out from under you, and I'm not sure I can put them back on you. If you go to a psychiatrist who says you're nuts, and then you give it to me in writing that he says you're not fit for duty, how do I help you? How do I pay for the bill? How do I keep your benefits in place? How do I keep your job open, when it's your doctor, you went to see, without telling me, that says you're not fit.
A. I don't know.

Q. I don't either and it's a serious issue to you like it is for me. When are you going to see Syed again?
A. I think May 14th is the soonest they can get me in.

Q. John, help me out here. If you couldn't get the help you needed from Mike Johnson, after you met him once, so you go to see him, and he can't even get you in until May 14th --
A. Well, Mike hadn't called me back in like a month though.

Q. Syed hasn't helped you either, has he, other than terminating your career?
A. No.

Q. Okay. So how did he better you? At least Mike Johnson is handling it under the table, where we can take care of this just out of our pocket and budget and not tell a soul, and keep everything running, and keep all your benefits in place. We've had life going on as usual. This guy ain't even seeing you and shot you out from under everything. There's a huge difference here. The help's exactly the same; none.
A. Yeah.

Q. But one takes your career away; that would be this one. You've got me really concerned here. What has happened in the month you've been gone? Are your dreams as frequent?
A. No.

Q. Okay.
A. I think I've two or three, maybe; that's it.

Q. Okay. So you've had maybe two or three dreams in a month. You have changed rather dramatically in the last month, have you not? Moved out or moved in?
A. No. I moved out -- I think I moved into this house the beginning of February.

Q. Okay.
A. I'm still working on it.

Q. Okay. Now, is this girl living with you?

Q. Is this a recent thing? Does it coincide with this?
A. What do you mean "recent," like living together or dating or--
A. She moved in when I moved in.

Q. I was wondering, when you talk about stress, you have the stress from the shooting. There are life stresses. Going into -- moving out of your mother's home into your own home is a major stress inducement.
A. I think it helped me.

Q. It does, but that doesn't -- there's good and bad stress is the same. There's good and there's bad. Okay? I go fishing. I catch me a 25-inch trout. There is stress while I'm fighting it, even though it's a good stress, but it's still stress. Heart rate still goes up, pressure's still there, (inaudible) change, life's different, your body recognizes it, and you change your eating and your sleeping patterns. It's stress. It's not a bad thing. You look forward to it, but it's still that change. It's still the same stress; it's just not a negative. Now, on top of that, she has moved in with you; another stress factor. That can also be a very positive stress, but it is still a factor. So you're multiplying your stress. Here's what happens: When everything else in your life is in check and you have a single stress factor, like the shooting, then the shooting is a single (inaudible). So there's no doubt where that stress is coming from. Okay? It's the shooting. It has to be, because everything is like it was before, when things were fine. Okay? Now, if there's the shooting and it starts symptoms, but on top of that you move out, you go out on your own and your girlfriend moves in with you, you're adding other stress factors. It's not a single factor any more. It is because you're out on your own? Is it because you're out on your own? Is it because you're footing the bills? Or is it because your girlfriend's moved in with you? Is it because you're picking up those with that, and you have to adjust your schedule to her schedule and have some more accountability in your life? Those are also stressors. That's also part of an issue, especially if this one is about to break your back and you add more, then you've got real weight coming down. So you're adding stress factors here. That's the only reason I asked. I don't care. It's your place, it's your life and I hope it works great and it's wonderful. I'm just saying these are other stress inducers. I'm wondering if there's other stress. I know for a fact there's other stress inducers. Your shift.
A. I don't think it's that bad. I'd rather stay on that shift than any of the other ones.

Q. I have no intention of moving you.
A. But, yeah, that shift just didn't -- the 2:00 to 10:00, that's what I like.

Q. I have no intention of moving you. How did it go at work?
A. I mean, honestly, (inaudible) was a pain when he first took over. I guess, he was micro managing, or whatever you call that.

Q. How was that for a stressor?
A. It does stress me out, but he quit

Q. And he started again, and I'm sure you've heard it, we got rid of (inaudible).

He takes clean conversations and (inaudible) and terminate people.
A. I heard he's always done that.

Q, Really?
A. I've heard he talks a lot and makes -- I don't know.

Q. It’s just weird. I'm taking him off the road. Kevin Hopkins is taking over the shift the first of May. Okay? (inaudible) That's going to be at least a stressor removed. So the stressors I can control, I can fix.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. What it leaves me with is, I want, and the Sheriff has demanded from me today, an explanation from you why the change, what your intentions are. I can understand the change. You went to Yee, Yee told you to see (inaudible). I'm with that. Now, a man has to decide what's in is best interests: Not Dr. Yee's best interests, not Dr. Syed's best interests. You did that when you decided Mike Johnson wasn't meeting your needs efficiently, quickly enough, that you went to Syed. So I respect you're trying to help yourself and better yourself and get healed as quickly as you can. I'm with that. Okay?
A. Yes.

Q. But, now, when Syed says, well, take the summer off, you stop. You don't see him until May, the middle of May, which means a month from now; but in that month, you're hanging out, but you're doing this to help yourself. How's he helping you? I know how he's screwing me.
A. He's not helping at all.

Q. You've a month off, and you haven't seen a damn soul. But you've got two months, but you haven't gotten any help, nothing; but you got two months off. So now that it's not Worker's Comp, your two months cost you all your vacation and your sick time. So now, you're without a paycheck. So when the Sheriff asked me, what's your intention, I can't tell him you want the dreams to go away; that's not an answer. That's like saying a screwdriver works better than a hammer. That may be true in some applications, but it doesn't address my question to you: What are you going to do?
A. I don't know what kind of answer you're looking for on that.

Q. Are you going to wait until May 14th to see him and see what he suggests and go from there?
A. No. I want to work, but I want the dreams to go away. It seems like when I work, the dreams are just there every night.

Q. Sure. You're adding stress, because the situation could happen again. So you're adding stress back on, and I guarantee you that will happen. But that was the whole point in going to seeing Mike Johnson, to learn how to deal with the issue. You haven't dealt with it yet. I saved a lot of (inaudible)that these guys may really (inaudible) and see that looking at your vacation and sick time, you don't have a lot of (inaudible) time left. You haven't dealt with taking the guy's life. You haven't dealt with it, You haven't faced it. You haven't talked about it. You haven't come to terms with it. And until you do, the dreams aren't going anywhere. That's just life. Don't matter what you think about it. You deal with it or they're going to stay. That's your option. Now, you haven't talked to anyone at any length about it. I asked your fiancé, who is the closest person in this world to you, and she said you just sit around, Johnny. If you can't sit down and talk about it, the dreams won't go away. The dream is your mind screaming, as loud as it can, telling you get this out of your system, talk about it, get it out in the open and live it. That's what it's telling you. That happens to everybody. Now, you're going to have to talk about it. That's what Mike Johnson was leading you into, is talking to him about it. The fact that he didn't do it the first meeting, just means you're impatient. A. He never called me back though, so I thought he (inaudible) care.

Q. Do you know how many times I called him to get you in.
A. How many?

Q. Six
A, But he told me to call him though.

Q. Yeah, well, I think he's probably busy. How many times did you call him?
A. Twice.

Q. Did you go up there?

Q. Okay. If you don't learn to be persistent in life, you're not going to get anywhere. Have you ever got a message here that started out with "I called you before," and they didn't give you the message to call him.
A. Oh, yeah.

Q. Do you believe he's lying or do you believe they forgot to give you the message?
A. That could have.

Q. They could have, and, if it happens a dozen times, everybody ain't lying; they forgot to give you the message. Is that your fault?
A. No.

Q. Could you cut him that much slack, Mike Johnson?
A. Yeah.

Q. He probably gets 500 messages a day. Here's the thing: You have a legitimate issue that probably needs help with it. He's dealing with nuts, as well as people like you who have legitimate issues. What could that V do if he's off his medication and no job? He's going to call Mike 50 times.
A.. Because he's got the time.

Q. He's got the time to call and call and call and call and call and call and call. Now, if you've had a month off and you've called him twice, that's once every two weeks; that don't impress me a whole lot. You haven't even gone by. You need to be assertive. These are your problems that's killing you, but, as long as you're on easy street and the dreams aren't bugging you and you've got the summer off to come and go as you choose, and the pay's the same, I understand why you're not at work. But that's getting cut out from under you now. Now it costs you your paycheck. Now, how motivated are you to get hold of everybody and say, "I ain't waiting until May 14th. I want help and I want it now"?
A. Really motivated.

Q. Yeah. If you had had the decent courtesy of checking in with me to tell me what's going on, we could have prevented all this, instead of shoving this down my throat and not giving me any options, and that's what you did. It's disrespectful, it's discourteous, and it's very stupid on your part. You don't give me any leeway, you don't give me any options. I thought about going today to the -- (inaudible) wanted to go to the sheriff and say, "I don't care what the psychiatrist said, he's fine, he's ready to go come back to work, and give him his vacation and sick time back."

The Sheriff would say, "Yeah, okay, Steve, what did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express? You know more than his psychiatrist? He's put in writing, he's still unstable." You did read that; right?

A. Yeah.

Q. That you couldn't come back to work until you're stable? How's a psychiatrist saying you're not fit to work until you're stable. How do you interpret that? Would you take that as that currently you're unstable?

A. Yeah.

Q. Is that a good thing for you?
A. No. I can explain what he meant by that, but --

Q. There's one way to interpret it, and if you know another one, that you went to see a psychiatrist who said you can't come to work until you're stable, if there's any other way for him to state that you're unstable, tell me what it is. He's a psychiatrist, Appalachian Psychiatric Services, Dr, Syed, says you are unstable and not fit for duty. If there's another way to interpret this, the thing that you gave me, I'm listening. Was there any other way you can interpret this?

A. No, sir.

Q. And that's the very thing you and I talked about avoiding?
A. Yes.

Q. With Mike Johnson?
A. Yes. That way it didn't shut me down.

Q. Yeah, exactly. So we didn't have the meeting that you and I are currently having. Now, John, it's your life. You're 23. I'll respect your decision with what you decide to do, and I will not question it. Okay? It's your life; it's your life, it's your time, but you're about to run out of time. Now, when you run out of time and you're still not fit for duty, the Sheriff has (inaudible), but almost (inaudible) to terminate you as being unfit. The Sheriff would never do that. He would support you to the end, but he ain't going to pay you. That doesn't help you. Holding a job open indefinitely while you're starving is not a whole lot of help.
A. Huh-uh.

Q. Okay. If Syed cannot see you until May 14, you need to make a decision. You need to make a decision what you're going to do. You have a couple of options that I see. I will suggest these to you and let you decide. You can wait until the 14th, talk to him on the 14th, and say, "Look, I'm not covered by Workers' Comp and I've burned up all my vacation and sick time. July 1 -- June 1, I no longer have a paycheck. So I've got next month off, I've got six weeks off and then I'm out of pay. " Because I actually went in yesterday and counted your time off, and I'm being generous in not some of your other days. And, I mean, if push comes to shove, you don't have that much time, but enough (inaudible) you have, that the most you can have through the end of April and May, come June 1, you're out of time, which means you don't get paid any more. It also means you don't earn any time while you're not getting paid. So you can go in on the 14th, "You've got to cure me, solve me, get me back by July 1." I can tell you what he's going to tell you: "No. You can go back to work when I'm satisfied you can go back to work. The next meeting "will be June 13th." That's one of your options. The other option is, you still have to overcome what you've given me. I can't ignore this. You've turned this in, as a matter of your personal record now, and I still have to address this. So you have to overcome this, you're" not stable." Okay? You've got to be able to go and see Dr. Syed and say, "Look, there's a clear misunderstanding. I turned in the work excuse saying I'm not stable, not fir for duty. You need to clarify that, that it would be," you know, "that I have a work excuse to come back to work," I don't know how you're going to get him to phrase it. I don't know.
A. Like I'm going to be under his care, but I can still work. Something like that?

Q. Something like that. It's okay with me. I don't care what he says. But he says you can't come back to work until he says. You've turned that in as official.
A. And then you know (inaudible) we'll probably end up having to reword it.

Q. You've got to go to get one from him that says, This was misphrasing on my part, and what I meant is, he is fit for duty, but because it's stress related, he needs treatment and I would like to continue his treatment, and schedule it accordingly." That's fine. Or you go back and see Mike Johnson. I don't care what you do to get your help that you need. What I don't want to see happen is you, in the beginning of your life, at 23-years old with a fiancé and this new place you just set up, you've got now utilities and a house payment and a truck payment and all the things adults have, then you're about to lose your job. You don't need that. And if there's stress, boy.
A. That's going to add to it.

Q. Well, you multiply your sleepless nights by about ten, and then suddenly you don't have enough (inaudible) to deal with all the pressure. So we've got to figure out a way to avoid this kind of stressor. Are you with me?
A. Yes

Q. The last thing you need, when you're talking about all your other pressures, your pressures, what you don't need to do is come to pick up your paycheck and find out you don't have a paycheck. So we've got about six weeks to figure it out before your paycheck runs out. I had absolutely no intentions of you taking sick time; none. I expected you to work and see Mike Johnson to work this out. But if you needed stress days and you needed to take days and cut your grass, that's fine, absolutely no problem. I told you we'd work with you anyway we could. I didn't mean take the summer off and not tell anybody and grow a beard and hang out and have a good time. That is not what I meant. I meant, you be a man, to grow a set, and to deal with your problems. You are going to have to sit down, John, and talk about this. It's not going to get better; it's not going to go away' it’s not going to fade into the background. It's going to get worse and worse until you sit down and talk about it, period. Eventually, everyone of these guys is going to tell you that. Okay?
A. Uh-huh.

Q. Until you can honestly deal with this, out loud, then the dreams aren't going away. Let me tell you something else, and I promise you this' The day you sit down -- and I don't care if you talk to me, I don't care if you talk to Syed, I don't care if you talk to Johnson, the day you can tell me what's eating at you, is the day the dreams are going way back. Then, the tools they give you to deal with it will work. Until you talk about it, it ain't. And I don't mean talk about it in a superficial general terms. I'm talking about details. I'm talking about searching your soul and really talking about it. If you want to talk about it, we'll talk. And you can talk to me, you can talk to a friend, you can talk to a doctor, you can talk to a counselor' it doesn't matter to me who you talk to. It's the nature of the talking itself, the opportunity to talk it through; and when you talk, it takes that whole weight off of you. When you share it with somebody, all of a sudden it's a load you can bear. Now, we have this philosophy that you're already addicted to. It's this (inaudible) macho image. But that's part of the job and it's life and we deal with it, and you do what you have to do, and that's just too bad for you. It's absolute crap. It isn't true, and you know it, and anybody who really feels that way needs to turn in their badge and become a terrorist somewhere, because that's what you are. The fact is, you were put in circumstances you had no control over, but you still were there. You still had choices.
A. Uh-huh.

Q. You still made choices. You can always question your choices, you just can't change them. As I see it, from my perspective, you had a choice. You could hope he'd drop the gun and it was (inaudible) or he just talked trash or it fell out of his hand, because he was drunk; you could hope that he shot and missed. There are a lot of hopes you could have made, but your two options were: Shoot or don't shoot. If you had another one, I don't know it. It comes down to this: You could either shoot or not.
A. Uh-huh.

Q. You chose to shoot. We'll never know what would have happened, if you had chose not to shoot. Would he would have dropped the gun, surrendered, changed his mind or would he killed Greg or you, or both? We don't know. So you have to decide what point is your life more valuable then the one (inaudible). These are the things you're going to have to talk about. You're going to have to talk about when you chose to pull the trigger. You're going to have to talk about whether you shot because Greg did, or you shot because you were (inaudible). It doesn't matter which one it is, because, hey, it was still the right thing to do. If you followed his lead and he fired, so you fired, that's okay; but you have to know that. You have you know it's okay. Until you say, "It bugs me that I fired after he hit the ground," and I'm thinking one of those shots ricocheted," whether it's true or not, and we don't know if it's true or not, yeah, it could be either one. It could have bounced up and hit him and it could have been a line of fire. It could have been directly within your line of fire. We don't know exactly where you were, we don't know exactly where (inaudible). We know where (inaudible) looked like when we got there, but that's not the same thing. Until you address -- you have to address these things. You have to go into every piece of that shooting and break it down and talk about what you remember.
A. I look back at it now, I can (inaudible), because I remember that I had him drawing down, I can remember I was drawing down on him and I just glanced over and just looked at Greg to see what he was doing, and Greg was drawing down on him, too and that was right before Greg yelled at him. Greg yelled at him, he turned around, and I couldn't see the gun then. It looked like he was holding something.

Q. (inaudible)
A. Well, I'm short, I couldn't see it. And then when he was raising up I realized what it was, and now that I remember, it's like Greg shot -- and I didn't look at Greg when he shot, but when he shot, I seen him bounce back and like it still didn't phase him. Then it's like when I shot, that's when he dropped.

Q. Uh-huh.
A. And so I guess because Greg's hit him up in this area, I think it just kind of bounced him back a little bit and that was it. I can look back and see that now.

Q. Uh-huh
A. It's like when mine hit him, it was like he got shot with a big sandbag or something, and knocked the breath out of him and he fell.

Q. But you know what actually happens (inaudible)?
A. Uh-huh.

Q. Okay. You have time distortions. You have tunnel vision. Time actually slows down and it's a survival mechanic the body goes through.
A. It seemed like ten minutes after he shot that I shot.

Q. Yeah, it does. It seems like it was forever. So what's amazing to me, because I've been in a couple of shootings where I couldn't believe how clearly my (inaudible) was, and how (inaudible) was, but I was thinking, (inaudible), and I'm just sitting, going, I (inaudible). I'm not scared, I'm not shaking, everything's working. And when the gun (inaudible), it's just boom. You see the round go, but it's not like -- it's like everything is just super slow motion. But you know (inaudible)? You know why I know what?
A. I don't know.

Q. (inaudible).
A. He just hadn't fallen yet. That one second seemed so long.

Q. He hadn't fallen yet. What it is, is you distorted perception is milliseconds. You're in a survival mode. Okay? You lose your hearing, you lose your smell, but your sight becomes incredible. It's incredible how clear it is. It can be total darkness and you can see what time it is on your watch. It's your body adjusting to survive. It's giving the necessary instincts that you have. You've got your sight, the most important thing. Everything's slows but your sight. Time becomes distorted, it slows down, and everything goes in slow motion. It's just perception and it's normal. But what really gets you the most about the shooting, if there was a single thing?
A. I really don't know, just -- I've just had so many dreams since then, and none of them have him in them.

Q. Right.
A. It's just made up stuff in my head.

Q, Right.
A. Not even situations I've been in or anything.

Q. But why do you -- okay. What gets you the most? Is it the shooting itself? Is it the aftermath of the shooting? Is it the vulnerability? What is it?
A. It just -- I don't know. It just wakes me up all the time scared, feel like I'm having a heart attack, I can't sleep, and I guess that makes me irritable. And then it's just like I'm sick afterwards. Like every time I have a dream, it's like I'm real sick.

Q And the problems multiply each other. One falls onto another one, it's like a domino. You think it is from the shooting?
A. I never had dreams like that until afterwards.

Q. Okay.
A. I had one where --

Q. Well, if it's the shooting, it's how you need to come to terms with the shooting; right? Okay. So what do you think is the best way to come to terms with it?
A. Talk about it with somebody.

Q. So when are you going to do that? It's been long enough now.
A. I just don't know if (inaudible) can help me though.

Q. Well, you need to talk about it. You've never talked about it. Why not?
A. Nobody's ever asked me here about it and I remember we was told not to talk about it.

Q That isn't true, John. Your mother's asked to hear about it, your girlfriend's had to ask you what happened, tell me about it; your mother hasn't said that. (inaudible) happen to asked you if you wanted to talk it through?
A I can't remember.

Q A lot of people have. A lot of people have. You've not heard it, but they're asking.
A And nobody didn't want to talk about it, because they just didn't want to, and then --

Q. Well, they don't have to. They don't have to (inaudible).
A. I really wasn't supposed to say nothing about it.

Q. That isn't true. No, that isn't true. Tell me about the shooting?
A. Where do you want me to start?

Q. What you had for breakfast that day. I don't care where you start.
A. I can't remember nothing that day. I can just remember, I don't know, but I think Greg may have called me, I went up to the hotel, he's up there on construction, sitting right where the front door is, actually to the left of it. I think he was in the -- I don't remember what cruiser. He may have been in an older cruiser, I think. We were up there talking and one of the --

they had called Bair and he was going somewhere, and I told him, I said, "Greg said for you to come up here," and he said, "Well, I have a car wreck to go to," or something like that, "and I'll be up there," I think, if I recall that right. I may be getting things mixed up here. And I remember that, and we're up there talking, they give me the call of a guy with a handgun shooting at his own house or something like that. I think that's what I recall them saying. I thought that was kind of weird, apparently something stupid, not true.

Q. Why?
A. (inaudible) through the area, everybody was gone, quiet, drove back on, looking for something else to do. Well, Greg said, "I can't let you go there by yourself." Well, we're out, standing outside the car when we're talking, you know, with the door open.

Q. Uh-huh.
A. Well, Greg says, "I better get my vest on," So he opens up his truck puts his vest on over top of his uniform, because he didn't have it on.

Q. Oh.
A. I may have done mine then, I think. Yeah, I think I put mine on then, because I don't think I had it on that night. No, I didn't. I can't remember if I put it on then or in Cabell Heights. I think I did it then just in case we drive into it. Put that on, I don't know why, and this has really made me wonder: Why did we leave the hotel, instead of going down Harper Park Drive right up to it? Why did we go down the interstate, the long way? I don't know why.

Q. The interstate to Old Eccles?
A. Yeah.

Q. Is that what you did?
A. I don't know why, but going the back way would have led us right to the place a whole lot quicker.

Q. Sure
A. I don't know. I was leading. I went that way. Greg followed me. I remember getting off at the clover leaf right there off the interstate, going around the real sharp turns. I can remember we was running a code, just in case it was a real shooting or something. I remember cars getting out of the way. I can remember me and Greg turning up Old Eccles, and we shut our lights down once we got to the top of the hill, so nobody would hear us coming or see us coming.

Q. Uh-huh. You're talking about Cabell Heights?
A. Well, we was coming up Old Eccles. Once we got to the top of the first little hill right there, that's where we turned our lights off, there was no traffic, 1:00 in the morning. We turned our lights off there. We pull up into Cabell Heights. Greg yelled at me and told me to pull over right there. It turned out to be (inaudible) driveway. I didn't know what I was going to do, where I was going to go, but he said pull on over. So we pulled over there and there's a wide spot right in front of her house, and we just thought the house was just, you know, 50 feet around the corner there, because I think they said the second right or first right. I didn't know where the first right was and we didn't want to pull right up to it. We got 20 feet away from the car or so, and Greg said, "Well, I'm taking the shotgun," I don't know why, but I just took the pistol. I'm just not a shotgun person. I've only shot them here.

Q. Yes.
A. And a rifle in a neighborhood probably ain't a good idea, you know, a close neighborhood like that, plus, it's dark. You can't see the sights anyways like that, with a rifle. So Greg gets the shotgun and I sit there and wait for him in the middle of the road. He walks back up.

We're walking down the road. There's one car go by, you know. We wave them by with a flashlight. We get to right where you can see his house, and you can smell alcohol real bad right there. It wasn't from him, I don't guess, but --

Q. I don't know. Spilled beer.
A. It was real far away, but, like I said, I smell alcohol real bad, like somebody was drinking inside of the house was in front of or something. We got a little bit farther and we hear the music. That's when we asked EOC to make sure, that way we know we was going to the right place, at 1:00 in the morning and we figured we was, until we got to the house before his with big pine trees. Right when we got there, we seen him walking and then Greg told me, "Watch out, there he is." So we jumped behind the tree. I thought he seen us, the way Greg acted, but the guy was walking from his garage and behind his house, you couldn't see it, (inaudible) his truck or something. I don't know, probably just a little visual of him. The street light was right on top of him, so we could see him plain as day. We head to his gate and there's a padlock on the gate or some kind of lock and we couldn't get in. We didn't want to jump the fence, for the fact, you know, you jump his, the whole fence rattles all the way around, you wonder who's coming in your yard and we get shot with nowhere to run. I mean, there's no cover in there.

Q. Right.

A So we talk on through there and peep around the house, and between the house and that little hedge row, you would see the truck. Well, I think about that time the radio cut off and he says, "What the hell." That's when he come walking and got in the truck. He didn't have nothing in his hands when he walked to the truck. It was like, well, he's unarmed, let's go, and plus the music stopped and he can hear us yell at him. It ain't like he ain't going to hear us, we're going to surprise him and all that and scare him.

Q. (inaudible
A. So we hurried up and like jogged, really, like I held my keys -- I always hold mu keys when I run. So I held my keys, took off, I don't even think I had my pistol out then. I think I drew it out while we was running. just in case. Well, we got around that corner and Greg had his shotgun aimed down, and the guy's just still piddling (inaudible), and Greg walked around this way and Greg was aimed at him, and I was angled at him, and whenever Greg said, "Police. Sheriff's Department," whatever -- he said police or something, I think he said police, Greg thinks he said "Sheriff's Department," He identified himself as law enforcement and said, Let's see your hands." That's when he turned around with the rifle in his hands. We never seen the rifle.

Q. You didn't see the rifle?
A. I mean, we never seen him with it. That's why we approached him then.

Q. Right, right.
A. But we thought it was in the garage or something. Apparently he left it in the truck. That's when he turned around and I could see he had something, and then once he lifted it above the bed, because I was behind the bed part of it, that's when we seen what it was, Greg shot and then I

Q. (inaudible) shot?

Q. (inaudible)
A. I could probably see him from about here up, maybe. I can't recall. Got him right in the middle of (inaudible) as far as I could see.

Q. Uh-huh.
A. I shot twice and he hit the ground. When he hit the ground, it's like he was rolling real fast, you know, like it's a roll-and--shoot deal, and I shot one more, but that's when Greg said, "Stop shooting." And right when Greg said that. I think his hands drops over or something. But I never seen the gun until I walked on around and seen that he had already dropped it, but I didn't know if he still had it and was going to roll and shoot, like the guy did to Bircham or Snead, because that's what I was thinking. He was going to do that and start shooting at our legs or something and drop us. I mean, I didn't know if he'd actually got hit or not.

Q. That's reasonable, sure.
A. At the time, I didn't think he got hit, you know, it just never crossed my mind, or he did get hit and it just barely phased him. And then we went up and looked at him, and realized he wasn't (inaudible), and I hurried up and ran up to the garage and checked the garage to make sure nobody else was in there. I remember that's when we told them we needed an ambulance sent.

Q. You did?
A. And that's when everybody started coming.

Q. Did you realize then that you'd shot him?

A. Yeah, when Greg, because, you know, they call me Muffin, Greg said, "Muffin, we just shot that guy.". I think that was actually before I checked the garage.

Q. (inaudible)
A. And we're still aiming on him, still have him (inaudible) down.

Q. Naturally, that's you (inaudible). So he says, "Muffin, I think we just shot the guy," You call for an ambulance, you check the garage, the ambulance is called for him, everybody starts coming to back you up.
A. It seemed like an hour before anybody got there.

Q. His wife come out?
A. I wasn't with her then, Oh, you mean, his wife?

Q. uh-huh.
A. I thought you meant did she come out that night and talk to me or anything. I guess while we were standing there waiting for the ambulance or somebody to get there, she come out and never told nobody that it was his house. I just thought it was a neighbor. She said, "What’s going on?" and we told her to go back in the house. And she come up with some smart-ass comment, you know, "It's my property. I don't have to go in." Me, not knowing who she was, I told her if she didn't listen to us, she was going to go to jail for obstructing, for not listening to our orders.

Q. Okay.
A. Because I told her it was a crime scene and she didn't need to be out here. And then she -- from where she was, she could see under the truck, she could see him plain as day from where she was, probably, but we didn't think about that at the time. And she just looked at him and she said, "Who shot who," just as calm, like she didn't care, just curious. Like a damn paintball game or something, who shot who? Like she had no concern, no care, nothing. She just stood and went back inside. Then the neighbor come out in his underwear and told his dog to shut up, right behind us. I remember that. I was standing right in the middle of the road

Q. Did you (inaudible).
A. Off his breath?

Q. (inaudible)

A. Not until I was pulling it out later on. Then , I didn't. I knew where mine was, because I actually looked for mine and that way nobody messed with it, because I got the mentality don't let anybody move it, and that way they can see where my stuff's at. So I told EMS not to step on it or kick it around.

Q. So you really think you did anything wrong?
A. No.

Q. If you had anything to do again, other than just not being working that night, would you have done anything differently?
A. Knowing what I know now?

Q. No
A. Or that night?

Q. (inaudible)
A. No.

Q. How about knowing what you know now?
A. Waited until he didn't have the gun, walking or something, take off running, tackle him, if nothing else. If you knew he had the AK and --

Q. Knowing what you know now, how would you have accomplished that?
A. If you knew where the gun was and knew he was --

Q. Knowing what you know now, where was the gun?
A. In the truck.

Q. No. You're assuming it was in the truck, because you didn't see it.
A. He could have had it down to his leg for that matter.

Q. Could have, and you couldn't have seen it. Did he have the gun with him? Was he reloading the gun? Did he have it sitting in the truck? Did he go back to the truck, because the music stopped and it was actually the truck playing the music? So he did he go back to get the music and had the rifle with him, or did he go back to play with the music and when you identified yourself, picked up the rifle, (inaudible) and pulled the trigger. You're guessing it all there. So even with hindsight, we know he was more than (inaudible). We know that now. We know he was doing pot. We know that now. We know now that he liked to point his gun in the vicinity of people. We know now he shot the neighborhood up that day. He fired in excess of 30 rounds and reloaded. We know that now. (inaudible).
A. I mean --

Q. You said you would have gone up and tackled him now.
A. Well, see, if we knew where the gun was.

Q. Well, if you knew what you know now, (inaudible).
A. We don't know where it was.

Q. You don't. Would you have tried to tackle him?
A. Probably not.

Q. What would you have done differently then?
A. Wait him out a little bit and see what he was going to do or --

Q. Would you have waited for cover?
A. Yeah.

Q. There's a huge problem you're not talking about.
A. With my cover.

Q. That's the first problem, there was concealment; right?
A. Yeah.

Q. What would Kade have done? Would you have gone and hidden if Kade didn't?
A. No.

Q. If Kade had engaged him, would you have not engaged him? Would you have hidden while Kade took him on by himself then?
A. Huh-uh.

Q. Knowing what you know now, would you have left Kade?
A. No.

Q. So it's not just what you would have done, but what you-all would have done. Would it be reasonable that you could have hidden and waited until you were in a position (inaudible).
A. Another thing I thought about, going through the bushes or jumping the fence when the music was playing, and going up to the truck and looking inside, not saying -- you know, while he's piddling, looking into that window to see what he's touching

Q. Yeah.
A. And then if he don't have nothing, then hurry up and get behind him.

Q. Sure. You could have done that. Of course, the other turnaround is, he could have seen you do that, picked up the rifle and shoot you in the face.
A. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that.

Q. You're thinking about him reacting in a specific way you're controlling and you react to it. And if you do that, you'll win every time without ever hurting anybody, but that's not real life. Real life is, if I had changed the facts, let's keep the facts, whatever they are, could I have waited longer, had him further from the truck and then engaged him? Possibly. Possibly though, if you had done that, he could have dove into the truck and (inaudible) face; right?
A. Yeah.

Q. His truck would have (inaudible). You were (inaudible). He had you tactically up (inaudible). The only advantage you have is your firing first. Think of the advantage you had. The shotgun was right toward the circumstance, but with the assault rifle, even with your vest on, it wouldn't have mattered if he'd shot.
A. Uh-huh.

Q. You did the only thing you could do to survive, and tactically speaking, it was the right thing to do. How do you feel about your survival of it? Do you feel like you did good?
A. Yeah. We walked away from it. That's the important thing.

Q. Is that feeling good or is that merely surviving? Is it an accomplishment or is it something to strive for?

A. We just survived, really, and didn't accomplish nothing.

Q, Okay.
A. Other than killing him.

Q. Well, that's good.
A. I guess we accomplished something for the neighborhood, but killing somebody ain't an accomplishment, if that makes any sense.

Q. What did you accomplish for the neighborhood?
A. Well, from their point of view, they hated him. He's gone now, but that's not nothing for us to say is an accomplishment.

Q. That's not an accomplishment. Evicting him would have been an accomplishment to the neighborhood. Taking his life's not; right?
A. Right.

Q. What did you do that was an accomplishment?
A. We didn't accomplish nothing.

Q. Yeah. You survived and he didn't. (inaudible) under the circumstances, but that is an accomplishment. John. You protected your partner and that is an accomplishment. Okay? And while it's a horrible thing, you did do right. You protected your partner. You protected your own life and you protected the community. You took an oath and promised that you would be willing to lay your life on the line to protect the innocent, did you not?
A. Yeah.

Q. Did you really mean that you would protect the innocent with your very life? That if it came down to it, you would protect those that can't protect themselves? Would that be (inaudible)?
A. That's a possibility.

Q. You knew it was a possibility
A. I never really thought --

Q. And now it's real.
A. You don't know it's real until you get in that situation. <

Q. That's very true, and it's kind of a like a standing joke until it really happens.
A. You just tell yourself, yeah, that might happen, but I doubt it.

Q. I know guys that in their whole career never pulled their guns. You want to be one of those guys. You know there's this thought in your mind that you (inaudible), because it's such an accomplishment, it's something that most cops don't talk about, taking a man's life to protect yourself and protecting your partner, using lethal force. It's not an accomplishment with cop stuff, that's up here, but when you get there, you realize that it's (inaudible) here and it's horrible for us to do. And I think that's what's happened to you.. I think you saw this as an accomplishment, but then when you get into the reality of someone, this woman doesn't have a husband and these kids don't have a father, then I think you realize this is not an accomplishment. I protected the community like I gave an oath to, I protected my partner and my life, but he forced us to kill him. He forced us by pointing his gun and threatening our very lives. You couldn't wait for him to shoot (inaudible). You couldn't wait to see if he was going to bluff you-all.
A. No.

Q. Okay. You did everything textbook right. You really did. (inaudible) If you'll go to the doctor, then possibly you'll get the help you should. You've taken probably your first major step just now, and (inaudible) how tough is it to talk about it.
A. Once you start, it's not.

Q. It's not at all.
A. At first.

Q. That's what we've got to do. You have to break down the things you're not talking about, the thought processes you're (inaudible). (inaudible) those girls and his wife.
A. I don't know.

Q. That's what's so crazy in all of it. It's not totally that, that's tough. (inaudible) Somehow in my mind, this is the only choice I had (inaudible).
A. Them little girls don't understand that.

Q. Those little girls had their father taken away from them by me. They don't understand he was trying to kill me or my partner.
A. And they probably hate us, because they know who killed him.

Q. I don't know if they hate you. I don't if children hate like that. Adults do, but I don't know if children hate like that. Children don't understand it. See, when they call you the bad guys, (inaudible) the bad guys took Daddy away. That's not true. (inaudible). (inaudible) about her dad. That's tough. That's got to be tough.
A. Greg said somebody told him that the wife said that she don't hold no hard feelings against us, because we had to do what we had to do.

Q. Well, I can tell you a couple things you don't know. There is a sister who is the bitch, not the wife, but his wife and his sister are apparently trying to sue us. They tried to go to every attorney, a couple of my dad (inaudible). The attorney (inaudible), we could probably get some money. One attorney told them, "Did the cop shoot him the front or back?" (inaudible). "If he picks up a gun and challenges him and points a gun at him, what do you expect a cop to do; run away? What if they shot him? Yeah, that's why he's dead. Deal with it. This is an attorney who has no morals. He's a billionaire he's a millionaire, because he sues, whether he needs to or not. (inaudible)

A. (inaudible)

Q. Even if (inaudible) called me and said (inaudible), if I thought I could win it, then I'd take you to court. (inaudible) The wife actually does understand, and I'm going to tell you something: One of their very best friends, he's a mutual friend -- I don't know him, but on of my real good friends knows him real well -- and one of my real good friends, I was shocked by it, but said, "You guys didn't have to shoot him." "Yeah, they could have died, you're right, they could have given up their lives, then I'd gone up there and killed him, but you know, I'm glad they killed him so I didn't have to bury my friends," He said, "Well, he's one of the nicest guys in the world, Steve. I fished with him," (inaudible) working that night (inaudible). I said, "He wasn't that night. That night he was a psychotic killer. He had an assault rifle, had been shooting up the neighborhood. They caught him with his hand against it, and told him to step away from the truck with his hands up, and he reached in the truck and grabbed his rifle. They told him don't do it, and he raised his rifle, from like 30 feet away, 10 yards. They had to shoot him." When we got the blood alcohol back, this guy's best friend, who is my buddy's (inaudible), best friend, said, "I think (inaudible) I have seen, but he's the meanest SOB I ever dealt with in my life when was drunk. He fought everybody and terrified others (inaudible).
A. And that's the one that took up for him?

Q. He does.
A. What about the other one?

Q. His best friend is telling my friend, he is challenging me --
A. That's the best friend saying that?

Q. Yes. What the best friend says. (inaudible)
A. (inaudible)

Q. He was three times legally drunk. He'd been drinking all day.

A. He had marijuana in his system, didn't he?

Q. About an ounce, about an ounce of marijuana, he'd smoked a joint or two, but when it comes to him being drunk, he still has got the function to walk but not to think clearly --
A. No. He just wanted to --

Q. -- clear thought, you see somebody pointing a shotgun (inaudible) get a rifle and tries to beat them to the draw, you're just dead.
A. He didn't realize the best thing to do was stick your hands up if they're already aimed down on you.

Q. But we do. You've got to view, you really honestly have to look in the mirrors and accept that you did right, John. It's not bad and it's not wrong. You did right. But you have to accept that for yourself. Now, one of the things that really bothered me about you, and we talked about this and you mostly ignored me, because you weren't talking or dealing with it, and Greg totally is crying about it, and you were all stoic, all chest stuck out, "Oh, I'm fine, it ain't no big deal." You told me. I'm sure I remember this. I said, "Should we talk about this?" And you said, "No, it ain't no big deal." I said, "John, we need to talk,: and you said, "(inaudible)." And I thought V. but it's cost a life, but it's okay to talk about it and it's okay to be upset about it. It's really normal to feel like you are (inaudible) and look at the possibilities regarding how stupid they are to have avoided this. The fact is, you had no options. Your options were shoot or don't shoot. If you didn't shoot, (inaudible) and that ain't the guy to let choose.
A. No.

Q. So you did nothing wrong. The reason Kade is okay, and the reason Kade is well, is because he broke down that very night in my office, and he sat here and cried about it and he got it out. He said, "My God, this is terrible. Do you understand what we did?" (inaudible) Now it's done and it's gone.
A, It's not starting to bother him like it is me now.

Q. Right. You let it fester. You sucked it in. You're like, I'm tough, I can handle it, I don't need to cry, no need to worry, (inaudible) God, it's me, I'm fine. You think about. God saved you that night, because you needed Greg, because you both put your vests on and took a long way around, and he knows what he was doing.
A. And parked the car down the street.

>Q. Yeah. Think about it, the fact that you took the long way around. Do you know what he was doing when you go the long way around? He was shooting up the neighborhood.
A. We'd saw it, him shooting.

Q. How would you like to drive up to a shoot out, with a cruiser, with that AR that's making Swiss cheese out of your car.
A. All we could do is lay down in the seat and hope to God he don't aim low.

Q. All you could have done is backed up, and then it's over. Tactically, the (inaudible) is gone. And then you park away and walk in, you couldn't (inaudible) yourself and walking and wearing black at night. Greg stopped, for some reason he to this day can't explain, turned around and went back and got his shotgun. Everything that night was about Divine Intervention and about him dying so that you can (inaudible), and (inaudible) few things greater than God letting you live, you won't (inaudible). It doesn't come any higher up, and if you don't believe in miracles, you look at how the whole thing happened. From you stopping to see Greg, who just happened to be there, that just happened to put your vest on, just happened to go the long way, just happened to park in the wrong spot and have to walk and stop and go back and get your shotgun, happened to catch him right after he finished shooting and had the gun set down. If all those are coincidence, (inaudible). Okay?
A. That all happened for a reason.

Q. It really did. That has to be that you just did what God provided you to do. It really has to be that way, John. There's no other way this is going to play. But more than that, you did everything textbook right, too. You didn't fail on any of it, and it isn't your fault on any level, none of it. If it hadn't been you who had been there, (inaudible), I don't know if Bircham, whoever else had been working.

A. Me, him, Bircham and Joe, I think.

Q. Yeah, I think it was. I think that's all it was.
A. Greg wasn't (inaudible)

Q. I know he was off duty. Think about that for a second.
A. If I'd been a leaving Mom and Dad's, I'd been right there at it and run right into it

Q. You wouldn't have had a backup. You'd walked into it. If you could change one factor in this entire formula, and it would change the entire formula dramatically, the fact is, I truly believe God protected and guided you-all. What had to happen, had to, and I believe that's why it happened. But look what has to come to (inaudible). Okay? I wouldn't lie to you. I would not call you in here to tell you you did good if I thought you did bad. I think you missed your first two shots (inaudible). I think (inaudible) near Greg's shotgun blast, and I think when you get the gun, you hit him with a dead center (inaudible) shot in the (inaudible). He couldn't have survived your third shot or Greg's first shot. They were unsurvivable. You share in what happened, but I think it was totally, totally justifiable, but until you come to terms with that, that's exactly what I think. But it will need (inaudible). If you want to sit down and talk about it some time just to make it easier, tell him you want to come up here, anytime. If you want to talk to your team, you talk to team. If you want to talk to him, you talk to Dr. Syed; but you get Syed to change this crap that you're not stable. I would trust you today protecting my life, this very moment, without a qualm. You are as stable as any guy I know. Okay? There in not post-traumatic stress syndrome. You have a hard time dealing with it, because you never talked about it and let it out. You just talked about it. You (inaudible) and you get the right tools to deal with it. You can get that from Mike Johnson or from Syed, but you're going to have to do that, and you're going to have to get hold of Syed and have him recant this, have him send a work excuse that says you are fit, but he would like to talk to you and that important first step for intervention or what, I don't care what he puts, but not that you're unfit for duty. I want that relieved. I want him to send a note that this is a mis-statement on his part, because you are stable, not that you're unstable. Okay? Because I don't want that -- I want that to be totally a misunderstanding.
A. I want to work, but I want help. I don't know what to do.

Q. You can talk. You can talk to Syed and get this fixed, but you need to decide: Are you going to stay with Syed? Are you going to stay off work until you talk to him or you going to talk to Mike Johnson? You made your choices, now you have to fix them, and you're going to have to decide. It's up to you.
A. I know. They're hard.

Q. You fix it. You tell -- you go to Syed and you tell him that.
A. Because I like doing what I do.

Q. You tell him: "You've taken me off and (inaudible) me mentally unstable, that I have post-traumatic stress syndrome, but you haven't even talked to me yet. Now, you're burning up all my sick and vacation time, and I'm going to go without a paycheck before I get to see you. So you get your schedule, you sit down, you talk to me, and you tell me to go back to work, so I can keep an income coming in," and then you set up -- get your appointments as needed. This is a fact of life. "I'm not starving, losing my house and my truck because you think I have post-traumatic stress, because you talked to me once." That's true, isn't it? He's talked with you once." That's true, isn't it? He's talked with you once.
A. Yeah.

Q. And he's going to give you the next three to six months off? He must be a freaking miracle worker. (inaudible) But, unfortunately, BrickStreet says you're already past your 10-day's notice and they've already closed your claim down. So he can't give you six months off; you can't afford it. You just give him facts of life. This is you. He just (inaudible) and your future, your home, your home, new truck, new girlfriend. But apparently he thinks everything is hunky-dory, we have a 5000-man department and we don't need you. That isn't true. The doctor thinks you have an unlimited (inaudible) and we're paying all the bills. None of that's true. So give Dr. Syed the facts of life. He needs to see you now, he needs to clear you for work, and, if you need future follow-up appointments, then you schedule them and we'll do it.
A. Okay.

Q. Is that doable?
A. Yes, sir.

Q John, don't sweat the small stuff, but deal with this like a man. And don't you ever turn around again and move and not tell me where you are, or change your phone number is and disappear, and then when you're supposed to be going to work and seeing this guy on the side, suddenly you start to go see a different doctor and get a 3- to 6- month excuse from work, and not even give me the courtesy of letting me know, drop it off on Gordon's desk and walk away like I'm supposed to deal with it. (inaudible)
A. Okay.

Q. You have a responsibly to the man (inaudible) and not just drop stuff off and walk away; right?
A. Yeah.

Q. Does that seem unfair and unreasonable of me?
A. No.

Q. Okay. Put my shoes on and walk a (inaudible). Suddenly, I don't know where you moved to, I don't know where you are, I don't have your phone number, I have no way of contacting you, and you go from having chest pains to heart diseases to two doctors' excuses that say you're off indefinitely. There's no explanation. You can't do that to me. Be reasonable. Come in and tell me what's going on. You need to tell me you need your time. You need help to get your (inaudible), Anything you need, we'll do , but don't drop a bombshell like this and turn around and walk off, and have no way for me to get a hold of you. That sucks. Now speaking of that, how do I get a hold of you?
A. 228-

Q. Now, this is your phone?
A. Yeah.

Q. You have a phone at home?
A. No.

Q. Cell only?
A. Yeah. 8947. That's new.

Q. Yeah. Where do you live now?
A. 117 Ranger Road.

Q. Where is that?
A. MacArthur, up off of Bethel.

Q. What's that girl's name?
A. t\Trish Hill

Q. That phone is so when I call and she happens to be there, I can say, "Hi, Trish," instead of saying, "Hello, ma'am," and sounding like an idiot. Okay. Get hold of Syed and let me know what's going on. Do you want a copy of this (inaudible) it really gets in your file.
A. I think I have a copy of that one.

Q. If they don't, I've got one.
A. I'll take that when I go in.

Q. I'll make a copy of that if you want to take it and say, "I have a real problem here. I feel I'm stable. Are you saying I'm unstable? Are you telling me I'm not fit for duty and, therefore, I'm not going to get a paycheck. Let's sit down and talk here, son. You've talk to me once. How can you show me unfit for duty? Put him on the defensive. "I am fit for duty and I am going to work. I do need to (inaudible) and, if I need help and we need to talk, let's talk." Okay? One of the things I want you to remember as you go through life, when you go to see Dr. Syed, he works for you. He's not the boss; you are. He's there to help you, but you're paying for it. That makes him working for you. Act that way when you talk to him. I want to know what you see as the problem. I want to know how long it's going to take. You have every right to expect him (inaudible) for him to say, "I'll see you this month and then I'm going to schedule you for next month," "Well, how's it going?" "I'll let you know then." Then get rid of him, because he ain't doing nothing for you except taking your money. You have a right (inaudible).

A. I'm on my way right there, right now.

Q. Huh?
A. I'm going down right there, right now.

Q. Well, be respectful , but be clear.
A. Okay.

Q. He doesn't have one interview and it gives him the right to do this crap. (inaudible background noise and unidentified voices.)
A. Chief, I'll be back here shortly.

Q. I'm going to bring you a copy right now.
A. Okay. Thank you, sir.